"Anxious-Avoidant Trap: Why opposite attachment styles attract each other?"

The anxious-avoidant trap is a recurring relationship cycle where an anxious partner pursues closeness while an avoidant partner withdraws, creating a self-reinforcing push-pull dynamic.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:43

We're back for the broadcast again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the way to intro, right? I think that's the way to do it. That's the way we start it off today. That's right. Baby, it's I cracked myself up, don't you?

SPEAKER_06 1:12

You crack your hand too.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

It's Friday up Thursday, y'all, and we really got a nice, nice show for you guys. Um, let's get ready for a conversation that matters, the story that inspires, and the reasons behind it. This is reasons, y'all. And we're about to meet the purpose, and every voice has a story worth hearing. It's your boy Fuel in the house, and we got my co-hosts in the house. So of course, we got go ahead and introduce yourself. No, I'm not doing it. Gold star for fuel. We're ready to do our thing. We ready to do our thing. We got something, man. The topic we're talking about today. I could be waiting. I could be waiting. I could be waiting. And then we we still have our our co-host. She's on the other line there. Introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

It's Shelves in the house.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Oh, you're gonna make me do it again, too.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

No, no, I can't do myself.

SPEAKER_06 2:08

It's nicer.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

That's what's up, right? That's what's up. That's what's up. Um, yeah, you guys, I mean, we got the really, really good topic that as you guys can see in the title. Um, and we want you guys to comment, share, um, uh, subscribe, all that good stuff, you know what I mean, and be a part of the show. You know what I mean? We have fun up in here and we keep it real too. So I'm letting you know, you know, Glenda comes with the professionality, I come with the street. Little yin and little yang. I keep it real. I try to keep it real and keep it open, you know what I'm saying. But y'all, you got what we're talking about. What we're talking about is uh anxious avoidance trap. Why opposite attraction styles attract each other? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. First, I'm a I'm I I I have to at least give you guys the meaning of it. Um, or what it is, rather, okay? Uh the anxious avoidance trap occurs when one partner has an anxious attachment style seeking assurance and closeness, while the other has an avoidance attachment style prioritizing independence and emotional distance. This combination often leads to pursuit withdrawal, uh withdrawal uh cycle, where the anxious partner attempts to connect triggers the avoidance partner, right? Yeah, and avoidance partners to pull away, which is turn uh intensify the anxious partner's pursuit. Over time, this cycle can create repetitive conflict, emotional highs and lows, and feelings of being stuck in a relationship.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Woo! Oh boy, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

Yeah. And having to to have to uh recognize that, you know, um that's the thing that we're gonna talk about. And that maybe it helped or save, you know, relationship because it also can this can um if you guys watch this, can also save you, even though we're talking about you know the difference between the two. It's not a point of talking about maybe you don't need to be together. There's a way to fix it if they're willing, you know. But then if that don't work, then y'all ain't gonna be together. I'm gonna keep it street, you know what I'm saying? So that's what it is. So all right, so so uh Glenda, go ahead and tell us then. What do you um what do you think as far as when it comes to this?

SPEAKER_04 4:43

Oh, that's how how many, how much time? Uh like this is such uh like this is my uh yeah, okay. Anyway, let's let's start with a little um attachment theory 101 because not all of our listeners and a lot of not a lot of people actually understand this, but it started back in like the 50s and the 60s. Um, John Bowlby, he has the hardest name for me to say, um, was doing these tests to see how attached infants were to their parents. And so there was a series of tests of, you know, keep being the parents with a stranger, let letting them play for a while, parent coming back, anyway, all the all the things, right? And what basically happened out of this is we learned that um the child is going to get their kid their needs met for you know their their core needs, food and love and attention and all the things, right? And how they how they um understand how love works was what made up their attachment style. Okay. Okay. So then we move forward into the future, and this is this is hard wiring. Like this comes from when you're little, little bitty, right? From your in from primarily from your primary care provider. So for most people, that's their parent, but it could be grandparent, it could be, you know, a nanny, it could be any number of things, right?

SPEAKER_03 6:03

So moving forward into the um into the more current times, Mary Ainsworth decided, let's test this theory on how it impacts romantic relationships. Because once we move our guests from home, right, um, the person that we want to get our needs from typically and that we want more from is our romantic partner, right? And so found that this attachment theory followed you through to your romantic relationship and how you were wired, for lack of better description, to receive love and that's the hard file a bit over here that you know again that we talk about the things for a few. Right, right. But just under kind of understanding that we all have an attachment file, um, and you know a little disclaimer here. I think that um our primary caregivers do the best that they can, right, with what they've got available. We all do the best we can for what we've got available, and sometimes they fail off. So this is not to burn your you know, burn on your parents or whoever was taking care of you. Um but knowing what your career style is and understanding how you can navigate by reprogramming if you coach through to make life a little bit further, is hugely helpful, right? Not not blaming the mom and dad, though. Right, right, right. Yeah. So like I said, we all have an attack with south. Okay, so so yeah. We all have an attack with south. And like when you say when you think of it, or you say that it it comes from the childhood, from the from the growth of how you uh treated or um yeah, so sometimes it's treatment, sometimes it's lack of treatment, right? So or lack of it'll make it a little bit more sense when we talk about that also. Right. Um like last week we've talked a little bit about how the anxious probably grew up in an environment where getting love and getting their needs met was not there wasn't a consistent way for that. And so we have strategies who feel like you know they were getting their needs met, right? Um avoidantly comes from an environment where they were left to fend for themselves, and I don't assume all these like finding your own feet or what happened. You may have had your core needs met, but the emotional needs weren't met, right?

SPEAKER_04 8:36

So from their perspective, emotions really weren't um shared, talked about, they didn't feel safe. And so when we've got somebody who's anxious, who has a lot of emotions, and somebody who's avoidant who feels that's not comfortable, or I just gotta do it on my own, it's kind of a conflict, as you can see, right? Right. So to answer your question, yes, they come from our upbringing. They can also come from major relationships in our later years. If something was really impactful to you, it can impact your attachment style. But the good news is we aren't stuck with them, right? They can be changed with the right support and the right tools and the right strategies to become what's coveted as the the the, I guess the what we would call the best attachment style is secure. And that's somebody who's comfortable with closest closeness and independence um and believes that they are loved and love is safe. Um so in a perfect world, we'd all be that. Right, right, right. We don't live in a perfect world, unfortunately. So um, so let's talk about the four. Um, so we talked about secure, so anxious, we talked about anxious a lot last week, and anxious being that need to get the reassurance that, you know, I'm not gonna be abandoned, that I'm loved, that, and what happens for the anxious is they become hyper-vigilant. So what I mean by that is these are the people who are really good at reading the room, looking at people's body language, their their tone, their and trying to figure out is this safe? Like, where do I fit in this? How what's my next strategy? What's my next next move? All for the purpose of get staying connected. Okay. So we've got secure, we've got anxious. Let's talk about the avoidant. So having grown up being an avoidant, not me, but if you grew up being an or having avoidance strategies, and little only a little side disclaimer here. I I don't like to say you are anxious, you are an anxious, you are an avoidant, you are disorganized, you are secure. You have um patterns of anxiousness, you have patterns of avoidance and you have patterns because we're not all one thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:54

So I can live with the pattern part.

SPEAKER_04 10:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah, as opposed to labeling.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Don't be labeling me. No. One in every crowd.

SPEAKER_04 11:05

All right. So an avoidant really values independence, they feel um crowded by emotional demands because they're not comfortable with that, right? They weren't brought up in an environment where emotions were safe and talked about and they felt them and they were allowed to have them and such, right? And so when emotions are high or they're in a relationship where the emotions are high, it tends to make them shut down or want to withdraw because it feels like a lot of pressure. Okay. Um, and so then they tend to want to go retreat and hide. Okay. Um, and then the last one's disorganized. It's really a combination of anxious and avoidant. It is the one that I got to the pleasure of adopting in my world. Um, and it's it's really very complicated. Um, and we really need to have like its own episode. So we won't go.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

The game itself is just disorganized, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:58

Yeah, it's also called fearful avoidant. Um, and it it it's very often coming from an environment where there was um a lot of chaos, sometimes um very dis a very dysfunctional upbringing, right? Um, you know, like in my case, two alcoholic parents, really, you know, so it you can imagine how does you're always testing the room, you don't really know, you go hide sometimes to say safe. So, you know, so it's not always that, but but it's it's usually chaos, right? Right? A chaotic environment.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

And that's what causes the disorganized is the chaos.

SPEAKER_04 12:33

Yes, correct. Yeah. I mean, the anxious has a little, well, so it's gets it gets to be both, right? So um the anxious has some chaos too, usually, or inconsistency, maybe is a better way to say it. Like they they don't really may not be as chaotic as as having um, you know, addict an addictive uh parents or something like that. Um, it could be even on the disorganized side, it could be even more on the traumatic side. It's not always, but often people who are disorganized had some sort of trauma growing up, some sort of um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Okay. Um Kendra, we got Kendra's in the house. What's up, Kendra?

SPEAKER_04 13:13

Hi, Kendra. In the house, Deborah's in the house.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Appreciate you guys tapping in. Uh as uh I don't know how to say that name. Aspirin Houses sip. I don't even know. I don't know what that is. It's okay.

SPEAKER_04 13:22

You don't know how to say my name either.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Uh Naomi or Naomi's Baddies. Okay, that's what's up. Thanks for the silver star. Appreciate you, appreciate you. Um oh, this other Kendra had a question.

SPEAKER_06 13:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

She said, uh, can you change can you change your attachment style as an adult? Or are you stuck with it? No. That's a good question.

SPEAKER_04 13:48

Yes, it's such a great question because we've been programmed to to function. And we talked about this last week, right? Like how the anxious gets very programmed to do certain things. They have strategies. Um, the good news is yes, you can reprogram because of neuroplasticity. So it's not as easy as just reading about anxious uh or avoidant or disorganized attachment styles and saying, okay, well, I'm gonna be more secure, like I'm just gonna do that. It does take a lot of um lot of support to do it um because it's uncomfortable. Our nervous system is un even though we might know being more secure would be the ideal place to be, it's not what our nervous system is used to. If like in my world, my nervous system was used to chaos, and so while I didn't want chaos, it's what felt familiar, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:39

That's fine as well.

SPEAKER_04 14:41

Yeah, so switching you know, can feel so here's an interesting thing. Um, Kendra, yes, you can change, absolutely 100%. But what I find when I work with people is a lot of times, especially when it's like a disorganized and they're they're learning to become more secure, they almost find secure people boring, right? Because they're so stable, uh-huh, right? And they're not used to that. So, yes, 100% you can change. Um it is a little work, but it's so worth it.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

So worth it.

SPEAKER_04 15:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Okay. All right.

SPEAKER_04 15:16

Uh, you know, I you know, I'm uh you have a question, Yule?

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm gonna get to the nitty-gritty of this whole thing.

SPEAKER_04 15:26

Go, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

You know, I mean, because growing up, you know, and we're gonna we're gonna get hopefully more into it, you know. What do you feel, or how do you feel about the opposite attract? You know, actually, you know, uh, is that really healthy in the relationship?

SPEAKER_04 15:42

Is it healthy? Those are a lot of questions in one question.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

I know it is, yeah. But just say, just say what do you think about the the fact that they say that the opposite attracts, and that's one of the things that you have. You have the difference between someone that is uh anxious and yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 15:58

So I I think it's absolutely true that we attract the opposite because we're seeing in someone else the piece that was missing in us, right? So if you are um anxious, let's say, right, and things weren't always stable and you didn't really know, you know, it just didn't feel stable, let's say. We didn't know where love was coming from or how you guarantees met. Right. And then you meet somebody who's avoidant, avoidant often presents as very um, very much got their stuff together, right? They tend to be super hardworking, really focused on dedicated, they have usually good careers, they're they're um they have an air about them that's um confident, right? Right. And so that is very attractive to somebody who's anxious because they don't have that. That's a missing piece. Going the other direction, the avoidant doesn't necessarily have the the ability to um, and I don't want to say be warm, but that you know, and an anxious tends to go over the top in giving and doing for others and being very um very focused on the other people in an effort to try to make sure that they stay, right? Um, but it it appears to the avoidant as you know very nurturing and very loving and very sweet and very giving something that they didn't have.

SPEAKER_06 17:22

Right.

SPEAKER_04 17:23

So it makes sense, right? That those two attract.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Right.

SPEAKER_04 17:29

Right. Because this is the piece that I didn't have growing up, or you know, and so it's very it's like a magnet, right? Which kind of goes back to me telling asking you last week do you tend to attract anxious people?

SPEAKER_00 17:44

You did ask me that. I did ask you that. You didn't know we were going that way. I I I have, I do, I think I do. And the only reason I'm gonna say I think I do is because of maybe um maybe rushing into a relationship too soon. Um, you know, and I know that, you know, that we might not know each other as well as we probably should. And but I, you know, if I like that person, I mean I kind of, you know, I'm I'm gonna go for it, of course, you know. Um, but there's a point where there should be some sort of uh slowing down when it comes to, you know, um trying to be in a serious relationship and not putting it all in one basket at once to the point where, you know, like like an anxious person to me is, you know, we talked about the whole, you remember we talked about the the uh texting thing or whatever, you know what I'm saying? And and and to me, it's kind of like if that person is not willing to uh uh understand that and work on that without it being a job, without it being something that you have to work on. You know what I mean? It's just it's just naturally been understanding or whatever and be like, okay, I'm gonna do it this way, I'm gonna do that way, or whatever, and I'm not tripping. But not say, okay, I'm gonna do this that way, I'm gonna do that way, but I'm still tripping in the back of my mind. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_06 19:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

And if you're still tripping in the back of your mind, you have not uh uh uh healed yourself from that. You know, you I feel like that you you basically, you know, just kind of holding it in and it's and it's gonna lash out and come out the wrong way to the point where the person with me is like myself, I'm more concerned, I'm laid back or whatever, and I don't like to argue and whatever. But if you jump at me, I'm gonna jump back. You know what I'm saying? Which is which is that's what you don't want. You know what I mean? Uh you want to try to have the calmness of the you know of the conversation, but you don't want to have the same conversation over and over. You feel me? I feel like we're I feel like we're replaying last week. Almost, almost, yes, yes, yes. Pretty much because we got into this last year. You're talking about uh two different personality traits or whatever, to the point where, you know, that's is I think it's a serious thing. You know what I'm saying? I think some people just don't understand what it is, how how it's labeled or whatever that you may be uh uh uh uh uh bringing to that relationship, you know?

SPEAKER_04 20:14

Yes, and and I think to to Shelby's point earlier, I think we were on air, maybe we were off air, I'm not sure. Talk so much. Um we all just talk so we I said we talk so we the difference we talk so much um that not everybody knows about attachment theory, right? Um, they think maybe this is just who they are, right? Right. So I love Kendra's question of can you change it? Because once you know and and you can kind of sit in that place of this is not my fault, and if I want to, I can change it. It's just like a big exhale, right? It's like, okay, good, you know, because when you think this is just how I am, it's kind of defeating for all um all attachment styles that aren't secure, right? They're just like, oh, how am I ever gonna get through this? So the good news is we can change it.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Okay. And uh Kendra just hit, she said uh chaos becomes comfortable.

SPEAKER_04 21:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

And so that's kind of like what I what I feel if you're going to constantly talk about something the same or over and over, the same thing, that you're comfortable with it, you know, and that makes it makes it not have a way out. You know, it makes you not have a way out or whatever. Because that's something, and when I it's fine, seeing that trait, I don't want to be a part of it. You know what I mean? And it's kind of like, you know, then what do you do? How do you, you know, how do you try to be understanding to someone that's like that to the point where you can be, I can be comfortable with them myself and be myself.

unknown 21:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 22:00

Um, was that a lot? That's a lot of questions again in one. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

So I'm just gonna say I haven't got any of my questions in. We'll get to that.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

You come. Um let me just say this one person can start working on themselves and make a change. But when you are in the anxious avoidant, you can call it trap, I'll call it dance, um, because it sounds nicer. Um both people have to do work. Both people have to make movement in healing their attachment style and becoming more secure for it to work. Um, or or you just have to be okay with the fact that it's just gonna be like this, right? Like I'm I'm gonna be coming at you and wanting you to be giving me the text every 10 minutes, and it's gonna make me feel a certain kind of way where I want to go run in the and hide because you're driving me crazy because you're asking the same thing, and then I'm gonna do that, and then we're gonna be doing this dance. So we have to have a really secure loving relationship where our nervous system is not on fire all the time, we have to do the work. Right. We both have to do the work right, right together, together as well. And together, yeah. So individually, and then we have to do our our work together. Yeah, right. Yeah. You're gonna let Shelby ask a question.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Yeah, Shelby, you your turn. You can no go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Oh, thanks, Phil. Like I'm just sitting here waiting my turn to raise my hands like a teacher when the teacher's like I well, I feel like to your point about the being attracted, like about how Phil attracts anxious anxious people, because he's more of an avoidant, but I feel like I attract the avoidance because exactly what you were saying, because how they come across at first. I feel like that's exactly why I feel like I attract the avoidance, but also to Kendrick's.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Do you attract avoidance? So you attract avoidance.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

I'm more the anxious, and then I feel like I attract avoidant men. Yeah. Yeah, we spoke on it a little bit last week. Which is yeah, just a fireworks.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 24:12

Yeah, because it's like so I mean, the chemistry is usually pretty intense with again. We talked about this last week, right? The chemistry versus emotional safety.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Um I think my question, Glenda, is that how, or maybe you were getting to this, and if you were, I'm ahead, but because you're always my lovely assistant.

SPEAKER_04 24:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

How how would one like seek to change this? So it's seek out a person with your credentials.

SPEAKER_04 24:38

Yeah, you really need to work with somebody who understands attachment theory and has a process and um can hold space for because this is I don't want to say it's hard work, but it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

It is hard though. It's emotional as well.

SPEAKER_04 24:55

It's emotional and it's uncomfortable, you know. Back to Kendra's point, like the chaos becomes comfortable, right? And so being uncomfortable and changing your patterns and changing your way of thinking and reprogramming your thoughts and the you know, and doing um exposure work and all of that, like it's not comfortable, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:12

It's not hard, but it's not comfortable. Nobody likes change, nobody likes change.

SPEAKER_04 25:17

So you know, I I I if I was the real Glenda the Good Witch, I would just wave my magic wand and we would all be secure. But um, you know, it's it's there there is a process, there's quite quite a few steps that one goes through. Um, but yes, to answer your question is you here's what you can't do. You can't read about it, you can't um read all the books and think that that's gonna make you secure. Yeah, it makes you knowledgeable, yeah, you might understand your your um style better, but it is not gonna make you more secure.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Okay, that's that's uh I'm glad you say that because in real time, in real time or whatever. I mean, we one can read about this, one can uh get educated, like you say, have knowledge of it, but in real time, the practice that takes it, you know, to understand it or to be uh uh uh uh understanding to the other person and work on it. That's the hard part. That's the work. That's the work. You know what I mean? Yeah, and and sometimes what some people do, they throw up the fact that, okay, they know it, but you're not practicing.

SPEAKER_05 26:25

Correct. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

It's kind of like, yes, you know, you know what it is, whatever. And that's that's a lot of thing with people, you know. Uh uh, of course I've rented to people that's more educated than me, or whatever, but they don't have a realness, they don't have any uh I used to call it when I was younger or whatever, not well, not even when I was younger, I I call it street knowledge because you basically been there, you doing it or whatever, you know, and it's real time, it's real feelings, it's stuff like that, you know what I mean? And you have to work on that in that real-time moment, but you don't think about it uh up unless until, you know, uh you're able to uh uh uh practice it, you know. So that's the that's the thing. It's kind of like because I to be honest with you, this whole thing about uh uh uh anxiety and uh the chaos and and the other person being this and that, I didn't even know. I did not, you know most people don't. Exactly. I think most people that's the good part of this uh of this show, whatever it is because we don't or whatever, and I'm glad that we're talking about it. But uh I still I still got you know I got more questions.

SPEAKER_04 27:28

You you you oh my goodness, I'm so surprised. It's okay, it's okay. It's okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

All right, before I go it's like I'm talking to my kids, it's all right. Hey, I mean, I mean, I was excited about doing this show today because of the fact that I've been through it and I've talked, you know, uh to people, whatever that's basically have been through it as well, you know, and and even you know, they didn't know that that's what it was. This is what it is, you know what I mean? So it's a good thing. That's why I was excited about it. But before I get into the questions, um we always gotta acknowledge everybody on here. Uh, the only negative thing I bring to a relationship is ugly toenails, face green. Who is that? Somebody we might get some trolls on here. Nigel, what's up, Nigel? Tell me how I look handsome. Thanks, bro. I appreciate it, Mike. Oh my gosh. Uh teachers bad face green. I don't know what that means. Um, let's move back to Kendra. Somebody just making sense here.

SPEAKER_06 28:32

That's so funny.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

What happened when one person feels like they are healing in the in therapy, but the other isn't working through things?

SPEAKER_04 28:40

Um, so what happens? So that's kind of an open broad question, Kendra. I think what you're saying is, and tell me if if it is or is not what you're saying, is it is there a chance for this relationship to be strong and secure?

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Um or is it one-sided?

SPEAKER_04 28:59

If it's an avoidant, anxious dance, uh probably not gonna get there if only one person's doing it. Um, because what tends to happen, it's usually it's usually the anxious person, I'm gonna be honest, that's doing the work. Okay, because the avoidant is not comfortable with emotions. This is talking about emotions, is dealing with emotions, right? This is so um they would much rather just go hide or work long hours or do whatever. Um, and again, it's not your fault. Okay. So it's usually the anxious person, right? So the anxious person is then now again putting in the effort, leaning in, trying to connect, trying to, you know, trying to make things better. And if the other person that's avoidant is also is not doing the work, it feels um too much like you're in my space and you're needing too much for me, and this doesn't feel safe. And again, we're talking about emotions and you know, you're you're leaning in and I need now need to lean out. And so it it typically does not fare well if if the anxious is doing the work and the avoidant is not doing the work. The other piece I might add is in my experience, the anxious does the work at a much faster pace.

SPEAKER_06 30:15

Really?

SPEAKER_04 30:16

Oh, yeah. Okay, and the avoidant is taking the slow train to London. Um, and because it's not comfortable.

SPEAKER_05 30:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:26

And so that can cause some um turmoil too, because now you've got somebody over here. So they're both saying they're doing the work, right? And then this person's like, oh, wait, I'm this far along in the process, and I you should be, and the avoidant is gonna move much slower, typically. So that's something else you have to take into consideration. Like, are you gonna be okay with the fact that you can see little micro changes, you can see works being done, and it's not moving at the same pace that you're moving. Um that's a big one, too.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

I hope you I hope you guys are are hit us in the comments with y'all questions or where we're talking about. Uh Erwin Curtis, is that it? Uh let's be honest. Date apps have brought the level of relationship anxiety up 1000%.

SPEAKER_04 31:11

What has?

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Dating apps.

SPEAKER_04 31:13

Oh, dating apps. So I'm not on a dating app, thank gosh. Um, but I would 100% agree with you. Yes. Um from it from what I've seen, right? Because we well, we talked a little bit about this last week of just social media in in its entirety. Um, you know, fuel says like he comes and he brings it real and he does. And and but what you're seeing on social mostly isn't real, right? Right. And so we're but we're comparing ourselves to like it is real. Um, and and the same is true with dating apps. We're gonna show up in a way that's not necessarily real and people aren't gonna be the same as if you know you met them at a coffee shop by random, right? Right, right, right. So yeah, it's it and if you are anxious or avoidant or disorganized, any of those, um, it's gonna amplify the pieces of you that um that are programmed to be anxious or avoidant or disorganized, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:18

So well, I I think I think I think uh in on a dating app, of course, when you're looking for someone, yes, you are pretty much anxious to to uh have a serious relationship or have a you know uh uh uh accomplished a relationship, you know, the building relationship fast or whatever, because you've been through so much, you know what I'm saying, your past and stuff like that. Say, for instance, if you were married for a long time and you got divorced, if you were in a relationship for a long time and y'all broke up, whatever, and you want to be with someone. And so you find someone that at least uh on the surface looks like that they could be that person for you, potential person for you, then you know, you jump right in and you basically, you know, still the you know, uh forgetting to take the time, you know, to recognize maybe see even red flags, recognize, you know, uh if this person anxious or if he's that avoidant person or whatever, you know, to know and measure that and actually really consider if that person is for you, you know.

SPEAKER_04 33:26

I again I have so much to say about this, but I have so much to say as well.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Um I'm gonna quit talking. No, no, you're good.

SPEAKER_04 33:38

I love us humans and how we got this. We all do it, so you know it's not I'm not just picking on fuel right now, but I'm gonna pick on fuel right now. Go ahead. Um how we've got this idea, right? Like I I'm not an a dating app expert, but I'm pretty sure there's several people out there that are not looking to get into a relationship. They're looking for some other things. Um right. And so right off right off the gate, then you've got kind of a disconnect, right? Because even if they say they're looking for the same thing, sometimes, again, we're using a strat as a strategy to get whatever they're looking for, right? Whatever that might be. Um, so it's it fuel.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

No, no, no, no, don't no, keep it real. And sometimes, especially on the app, they're anxious to get into the draws or whatever. Yeah, or basically are having sex or whatever. Or whatever, as opposed to actually really learning who that person is.

SPEAKER_04 34:38

Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. And I know, you know, I I'm I heard, I don't know that there's apps for, you know, for that specifically. But I think when you go onto something like a dating app, you're you're presenting in a way that um you think is going to attract what you want. Okay. But to your point, we have to slow the roll, right? We have if we want to, if we want to do something that's lasting, and um an anxious person is gonna want to move fast because they want to feel secure and that you're not gonna leave me and you're gonna stay with me, and you're you're the one.

SPEAKER_06 35:20

Right.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

And an avoidant person is gonna move usually fast at first, but then slow way down when they start getting real feelings. So that is confusing for an anxious person because initially it's like, oh, we're on the same page. Here we go. We're running, right? We're running. And then the avoidant person is like, oh, wait a minute. Holy moly, these are real feelings. Uh uh, I can't do real feelings. I'm going to now retreat. And the anxious person then goes into, you know, spiral of what's going on. I think we're on the same page all that time. So, you know, it it there we go with the dance again.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

So is well, I mean, is someone that's avoidant uh because they don't is it because they don't care or is it because they feel safe or what?

SPEAKER_04 36:04

Um it's not typically because they don't care. Um and that's it's that's a great question because a lot of times we assume that avoidance just don't have feelings and they don't feel like that's what it feels like, right? That's what it feels like. Um what it really is is they don't know what to do with them. Right. They don't have been taught, right? They haven't been modeled how to have a feeling relationship with somebody. And so that becomes very overwhelming. And the message that they got when they were by their primary care provider givers or whoever they learned their attachment style from was we don't do feelings. Like emotions are not okay, okay, right? And so now they're feeling and they don't know what to do with it. And oh my god, this is bad. And what if I don't get it right? A lot of shame um associated with avoidance that they're not gonna get it right, you know. So it it's it's not a lack of of caring at all. It's a lack of I don't know what to do with this. Um, and that's super uncomfortable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

All right, go ahead, go ahead. Uh Shelby. Shelby.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

I feel like I lost my train of thought now, but all of this I agree too. And I feel like I've had these situations happen to me, which I feel like it's like feels said it's really good. Like I was excited about this week's episode just because I feel like a lot of people just don't know about this. Like I've mentioned that I mentioned to my friends, and they're like, What is attachment styles? So, like, even if they know what it is, they're like, Oh yeah, well, I'm like some people have known, but they're like, Oh, I'm just anxious. But it's like, well, no, but what are you gonna do about it? Like, what tools are you like gonna do? But I think my biggest question is like, if you're single, how can you work on this alone? Can you just work with relationships in your life, or is it better to work on it when you get in your next relationship?

SPEAKER_04 37:55

Great question. That's a really great question. Um, a hundred percent you can work on it on on your own. Um, here's what I will say when you're in a relationship, it gives you lots of opportunity to practice, right? So but but there's a lot of healing, a lot of work that that can be done, um, a lot of reprogramming, a lot of nervous system somatic work that can be done before you have to go into the fire of of dealing with somebody who's avoidant, right? So the plus side about being in a relationship with somebody who's who's you know, if it's the avoidant anxious um dance, is that you have lots of opportunity to practice, right? To practice your tools. But you can practice those tools with other people that you that are important to you, right? Or even friends. There's lots of little things that we can do to just get you, let's say it's an avoidant, right? Um, they're in an uncomfortable conversation, somebody's talking about something that maybe maybe it's with their parent or whatever. One of the things that you know I might ask them to do is stay a little bit longer than you normally would in that conversation before you disappear.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:59

Right? That yeah, that kind of a thing, right? So that was a great question. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Because I feel like I've worked on myself like so much, and then I got in my last relationship, which he was an avoidant, um, and had, you know, things to work on. But I feel like I did better than normal, like I explained last week. But I still have been like trying to work on it with like my mom, you know, my best friend, like my friend relationships. But I feel like it's still not the same as working in it when you're actually in that relationship. Because I feel like I did so much work, but then still the same thing happened. But I feel like I wasn't as aware as I am now. Like I feel like I know a lot more just speaking to you.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Shelves, let me ask you, let me ask you this, Shelves. Um, do are you able to recognize someone being avoidance when you first start talking to them or even like, say, for instance, just dating, you know what I mean? Not getting into the relationship yet, but just dating. Are you able to, being that you basically, like you said, if you worked on yourself, are you able to recognize someone as the avoidance to the point where even if you liked it, y'all had that attraction, you know, this is not gonna last. This is not gonna be a, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 40:09

Have you ever Yeah, it's a good question. I have noticed a few like things that I'm like, oh, that is definitely like that going down the same road that I don't want to go down again. Like, I'm like, oh, this person is definitely most likely avoidant. I don't want to like judge on the first, you know, impression. There is a few things. Like, I feel like if they're already like prom you tell me if I'm wrong, Glenda, but yeah, but like if they're already like making promises to you, like or talking about the future too quick. I feel like that's kind of just like makes me back off because I'm like, oh no, they're already like what is it called? There's something named for it. Like they um not an avoidant, but they well, they are kind of an avoidant, but they um love bomb you. Love bomb you.

SPEAKER_06 40:55

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

But they're basically an avoidant as well, kind of, I feel like kind of.

SPEAKER_04 41:00

But yeah, so that again, we're back to that that initial um period of time, and I can't tell you exactly how it it would be before you start seeing the signs of the avoidant feeling, really starting to feel real feelings and starting to back away. But initially, they would they would present like they're pretty secure, like you know, they would be wanting to make plans and feel comfortable in telling you things because the feelings, the real emotions about you are not real yet, right? So it's not so it's safe, yeah. It's safe. And then once the feel the real feels come, yeah, then you start seeing the backpedaling, right? The like, oh, I've got to work late, oh I can't come this weekend, oh, I'm just too tired, or sometimes they don't tell you anything at all. It's there's ghost, right? Um, and that doesn't mean they don't care.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

Yeah, you're exactly right, Glenda. That's how my last relationship presented. He was very like, you know, calm and like stable. And I want to say stable, that doesn't sound, you know, nice, but you know what I mean. Like he sounded like not, he sounded like different than what I had dated before. So I didn't think he was an avoidant. And I do think that part of him is not, but I feel like most of it is. But I yeah, he that's why I was like kind of taken off guard because he didn't present like that, but then he didn't present like that wrong like backpedaling. So I feel like that was my next question was like, how do you really recognize like if somebody is? But I feel like I'm an avoidant at first. Like I have a lar hard time trusting men. It takes me a while. Like, I'm not like, oh, I want to jump into this. I'm like, no, no, let's backpedal. And then I'm like, okay, once I feel safe, then I'm like, okay, let's go.

SPEAKER_04 42:45

Yeah, as an anxious, you're trying to read all the signs, right? Like you're trying to see, like I'm trying to pretend what does that really mean? Does that really mean you like me, or does that really mean something, you know, or can can can someone anxious uh earn a bo avoidance via avoidance? Can someone really we can change our attachment style for sure?

SPEAKER_00 43:04

I I it typically it's more like Is it really a change, or is it just a feeling that that that they have to want to be with someone or whatever? Can that actually really be changed? I mean, or you know, I don't know. Tell me.

SPEAKER_04 43:19

Okay. So um are you saying they just want they they just want to have somebody in their life, like they want to have a relationship? Is that what you're asking?

SPEAKER_06 43:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:28

Um they for sure do because they want that security of love and not feeling like they're gonna be abandoned, right? So that's for sure. Um, which can make things complicated because you can end up with the wrong people because you there is a little bit of that. If you were giving me the constant reassurance that I needed, and really it was just a lie, but I believed it because of whatever, you're really good. Um I could fall for that, right? And think that this is a secure, long lasting, loving. Relationship.

unknown 44:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04 44:01

Um again, everybody they have has to be work all all around because in a secure relationship, I won't need to have you text me 8,000 times a day. Right. Or vice versa. Right. Right. But it's not because necessarily because I don't like if I'm asking you to do that, it's not necessarily because I don't trust you or I think you're doing something bad. It's like we said last week, it's because my nervous system is like, oh my gosh, I I'm feeling like I'm losing you.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Like there's something's and it's not, it's not necessarily, you know, because you said certain something in a text or you But I I think I think it can still it can still start making a person feel like it's a uh especially after you've talked to uh talked about it, you you you make a person feel that they're being like like you need this to in order to keep up with me, this to keep keep track of me. Yeah or you know, feel like that, you know, that obviously you're not really secure with what's going on with us to the point where, you know, when say for instance, if I tell you I'm doing something, you know, I'm starting somewhere and you feel like if I don't you don't hear from me or whatever, that I'm doing something else. You know what I'm saying? And so that's the part, you know, I think can can ruin the relationship to me. For sure.

SPEAKER_04 45:21

Yeah, for sure, for sure. Which again, oh again, we go back to like everybody needs to do their work, right? Because like we talked about last week, if the person who's anxious could look at what's actually happening instead of in their mind what they think is happening, right, and see those patterns and track that, which is different than what they would normally do, right? Um, that starts building security, right? That starts building that stability and that's that safety net. And so then you will get less um, I don't want to call it necessarily accusations, but the the the other person might feel less accused, right? Or like they're doing something bad. So it's a dance.

SPEAKER_00 46:00

Uh is it a is it a habit? Is it a habit that's that one can do to break the avoidance and uh uh that cycle? And the ancient uh a cycle as well?

SPEAKER_04 46:09

It's not a habit, really.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Um, well, I mean, if if they make it a habit, it's but like practice or whatever to the point where start being more consistent than just you know normal.

SPEAKER_04 46:21

Yeah. Um, are you talking about the avoidant person being okay? So there are things that both sides can do for sure, um practiced over time, right? And that can start softening it for sure, start making it feel a little bit more stable for both sides. Um but it can't really happen in a vacuum. So we have to know what we're doing. We have to know we have to have conversations about it, right? Like this is this is where we're at. This is how this is impacting me, this is how it's impacting me. This is, you know, so what do we do about what do we do about it?

SPEAKER_06 46:55

Right.

SPEAKER_04 46:56

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

So well, okay, all right. All right, we almost there, we almost there, we almost there at the finish line here, but um when should you fight for the relationship and when is it healthier to let go?

SPEAKER_02 47:14

That's a good question.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

Yeah, like when should you fight for it and when is it healthier to just let it go?

SPEAKER_04 47:22

Um, that's loaded.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Um, bring is loaded. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_04 47:28

All I bring is loaded.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

All our brain is loaded.

SPEAKER_04 47:31

So I I want to get back to um this this this is layered. This is a layered answer because I'm gonna get back to whatever your nervous system is doing, you first need to get that into a stable, secure place before you can really know if this is the right relationship, right? So you have to do your work because if your nervous system is talking, it's oh it's taking away from your logical brain, right? It feels unsafe or it feels safe for the wrong reasons, or what have you, right? So doing that work first, which is a process, right? Is practice, is exposure, it's reprogramming, it's a lot of the things. Um until you're there or close to being there, you're probably not gonna recognize whether or not it's a right relationship for you, right? Because again, if my nervous system is used to chaos and you're providing chaos for me, there's some comfort in that, even though my logical brain would be like, I don't want chaos in my life.

SPEAKER_06 48:45

Right.

SPEAKER_04 48:45

So there's right. So there's some like, oh, well, this is comfortable. Oh, okay, I feel familiar with this. Um so that's why I say it's kind of a loaded question, because if you are uh an insecure attachment style with an insecure attachment style and nobody does their work, you're not ever gonna really know.

SPEAKER_06 49:06

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 49:07

To be honest, you're not gonna know until you get to a place where you're like, I am I am more secure now. I feel like okay being alone, I feel I feel secure in my, you know, in that I deserve love and that I and I can I can get love. Um then you will see things different in in other people. Right? But while you're while you've got your work and they've got their work, it's really hard. Really hard because you're attracted by the one thing that you don't actually want.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

You know what I think? Wanna know what I think?

SPEAKER_04 49:40

We need a nap.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

Y'all wanna know what I think? Seriously, I do. I I mean I I I think that if one is working on it, right, then I don't think the same thing would occur consistently. If you're working on it.

SPEAKER_04 49:58

Tell me more.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

Um so if that person is not working on it, and the same results come back as of the person that's not uh uh or the one that is avoidant, you know, is going to get fed up. And that avoidance is gonna end up being more of a breakup because you don't see that person working on that or whatever. But then too, as a as a person being avoidant, you know, what is what is it that I'm working on too? Because it works both ways.

SPEAKER_06 50:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:31

I have to work on something as opposed to so, but if I see that that person is not working on it, and we're still having the same conversation, you know, as opposed to a different conversation of something that I needed to work on, and I didn't try to work on it, you know.

SPEAKER_04 50:49

And I think it's a mystery, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 50:51

It's it's it's it's um I mean, but it's I mean, that's it's that's real talk in the relationship because sometimes you you have those those conversations where, especially when you're wanting it to be as strong and as good as you want it to be, you know, and the whole thing is is the rep, you know, repeat, the repeat, the repeat, the repeat, you know. That's not healthy in the relationship, period to me.

SPEAKER_04 51:16

It's not healthy in the relationship. But here's the thing that I think is I think you're I think you're right. And and I'm gonna add a tweak, um, in that the work as an avoidant and the work as an anxious are not the same work. So if you're working on it as an avoidant and you're doing your thing and you're, you know, and you're looking at the anxious and you're like, well, they're not doing that thing. Their thing is different. So we have to know what the work is, yeah, right. So that you can recognize um if there's if there's micro shifts, right? If things are happening. Because you if you're looking at it from like, well, I'm I'm staying five minutes longer in a conversation, so you're not, what's the problem? Yeah, that's not their work. That's not, yeah. So we have to kind of be careful with that. I understand what that is.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Um the um yeah, I want to say Erwin Curtis, 40, 28, personal experience, women's attachment to a man become second fiddle once a woman has kids.

SPEAKER_04 52:28

Um your attachment style is your attachment style. It doesn't really change because I think that's a whole different because of kids.

SPEAKER_00 52:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:40

Um, but I do think being a mom, um, it is very common that the relationship on going in both directions does not get nurtured in the same way as before kids, and that a mom is going to take care of her kids. Like that's, you know, we're kind of wired that way, right? Um and this is part of the work, right? This is part of the work, is keeping those relationships healthy and strong. And the more secure you are in your relationship with each other, the more you can have conversations about like, hey, feeling a little bit like second fiddle here.

SPEAKER_06 53:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:18

Um, and not have concerns about how that might land. You know what I mean? Um, but you as you can imagine, if you're if you're an insecure attachment style, saying that the wrong way at the wrong time, you know, could really not land so good. Right. Yeah. Yeah, it could be um could be negative.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

Have to recognize what the other person's long-term agenda is.

SPEAKER_04 53:40

I mean, yes.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

That's that's I actually that's probably the most instant person on the internet right now.

SPEAKER_04 53:46

Yeah, I mean, what you know, what's the goal, right?

SPEAKER_00 53:49

Yeah, recognizing what their agenda is, what their real agenda is. And sometimes you absolutely you go into a um into a race a relationship, you know, and you think you know what the agenda is, and you think what the goal is, you know, but then is some sort of hinder hidden agenda that people have that no that doesn't come out until late.

SPEAKER_04 54:14

Yeah. Well, I think yes. I so there's um I have lots to say about this one too. We need we need an episode on this one. Um yes, agreed. You have to know what are the goals. That the you know what's everybody's end game here, right? Um sometimes we don't a hundred percent know what the end game is, but usually we have a good idea. The challenge comes in that different attachment styles communicate differently or don't communicate because they're not comfortable communicating. Um often true with both anxious and avoidant because avoidance worried about that they're not gonna get it right and this is too much pressure, and why do I have to even do this? And the anxious is like, oh my gosh, if I say something and make him mad, he's gonna or her mad, she's gonna ease out, and then I'm gonna be abandoned and left alone. And so we just don't say anything, right? Right? We don't have a conversation about it. We just kind of like look for the signs, like, oh well, they said they wanted to go on vacation next year. I guess that means we're staying together for another year. So I guess the long term version, you know. So um, so learning learning how to communicate with your attachment style and the other person's attachment style and learning good communication skills in general as far as relationships go, is is key to getting to that answer. Right? It's all part of the the games.

SPEAKER_00 55:31

Okay. All right, man. We got we got a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 55:36

It didn't even seem like it was. I know, it's like 13 seconds. I know.

SPEAKER_00 55:39

Times were so fast, guys. Wow. Um just the questions at the end that maybe you guys can hit in the comments, you know, after you watch the show all the way through. You know, what's uh one behavior you've mistaken for love that you later realized was an attachment trigger? And have you ever been the anxious partner, the avoidance partner, or both at a different time in your life? That's for good.

SPEAKER_04 56:05

If you're both anxious and avoidant, you're probably disorganized or fearful avoidant, same thing. Um, and I'd love to talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

Well, I mean, just like have you have that person like say, for instance, if I'm an avoidance type right now, was I anxious time, you know, and it and I and I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna answer that question really, really, really truly. Okay, I have been both. Because I have because of the person that I thought that I wanted, I was kind of anxious to, you know, and and that was with my daughter's mom. We ended up getting married like way faster than we should have, and I did want that or whatever. And then we found out, of course, we ended up being friends later, of course, right great friends actually before she passed away from stuff. Um uh, but I was that that anxious, and that may be a trigger of why I have the avoidance style now. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 56:57

I I think we need to dig into it.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

Yeah, we can dig into more than that. Yeah, um I need I need to couch in the chair for all that. Okay, the other question guys is what's one lesson about attachments that changes the way you date? All right. So, you know, hit that in the comments at the end, man. We go we can we always we can always go an hour, an hour and a half, two hours, but uh six days. Yeah, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 57:19

We can be talking on here for five hours.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

Exactly, right? You know what I'm saying? So um, but that's not gonna be the case today. We have to we have to get out of here. It's almost that time or whatever. But I do want to leave you guys with, even though we, you know, talked about uh uh how the avoidance can, you know, can re mess up a relationship or break up a relationship, you know. I still want to let you know uh something, uh at least why it happens. That way you can try to avoid it. Is that does that make sense? No. No? Maybe that that ain't maybe that ain't what I was getting at. Let me see. Oh, well, okay. Uh maybe like breaking the cycle.

SPEAKER_02 58:00

Yeah, that's what I need to do, is break my cycle.

unknown 58:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 58:04

Uh, and I'll say like the awareness of first steps a couple can work that they a couple could work on is recognize their attachment styles and triggers, communicate needs without escalating uh the cycle, and establish healthy boundaries and personal space. You agree?

SPEAKER_04 58:23

Um, I agree, and it's a lot easier said than done without support.

SPEAKER_00 58:27

It is yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:29

But that is a that is a cycle that you can try to practice.

SPEAKER_04 58:33

Yes. So if you're anxious, you know, learning to self-soothe before you take action is a good one. We talked about that last week, right? Like taking a beat, trying to calm your nervous system before I reach out and text you 4,000 times. If you're avoidant, a simple thing would be stay in the conversation a little bit longer than you want to. Um, those help to kind of not break the cycle, but like slow it down maybe a little bit. So we're not just this push pull, push, pull, push, pull, push, pull. Um yes, we could we could do a part two.

SPEAKER_02 59:09

I'd like that. I think we should.

SPEAKER_03 59:11

Or a part 22.

SPEAKER_00 59:13

Right, right. Exactly, exactly. All right, man. That's gonna do it for us. You guys, we appreciate you guys. I mean, man, that was that was good. That was good. I hope you guys got something out there. I appreciate you guys that uh comment. Uh Mr. Erwin Curtis, and of course, Kendra. Who else that been on? Who else hit us in there in the chat? In the chat, in the chat.

SPEAKER_02 59:35

I think we missed somebody on accident.

SPEAKER_00 59:37

Oh, yeah, we did. Oh, well, my bad, my bad, my bad. Oh, uh, yeah, there was uh Betty, Betty Koo Ray. I can't pronounce that. I don't know. But she gave us some chili peppers or whatever that is. Appreciate it, appreciate it. Uh, but yeah, that's gonna do it for us, guys. I appreciate you guys tapping in. Uh, of course, I love our co-hosts. I appreciate them coming in and giving y'all knowledge and uh shelves. Yes, I'm gonna get on you right now. We're gonna have something next week, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:06

We are definitely gonna have some next week.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:08

All right, all right. Y'all heard her, y'all heard her, y'all heard her. Yeah, so you have something for us.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:15

I'll be back next week, the celebrities segment.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

Yeah, that's what's up the ball this week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was gonna tell him all that. I was just gonna let him know.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:27

Okay, she threw herself under the bus.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Throw yourself under the bus.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:30

I know, I'm just kidding. I love you. He didn't get he didn't yell at me or nothing. He's nice, don't worry.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:35

Right, right. We ain't no fair yet, though.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:39

No, I didn't say that. I said he didn't yell at me. No, I said no.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:43

All right, that's gonna do it for us, guys. We appreciate you guys tapping in and remember if they're talking about you behind your back, they behind you for a reason.